OTC: Mizzou Changes Its Status To: Available

“Simply put, Mizzou has not ruled out staying in the Big 12. It will be shocking to me if they do.”
@GabeDeArmond, Twitter
GH: It took some time Tuesday night but the meeting of Missouri’s Board of Curators finally delivered a verdict. It was not that they remain a proud member of the Big 12 Conference. It was kind of the opposite of that. Read on.

“The Board of Curators delegates to Chancellor (Brady) Deaton the authority to take any and all actions necessary to fully explore options for conference affiliation and contracts related thereto which best serve the interests of the University of Missouri-Columbia
and the University of Missouri system.”
Warren Erdman, MU Board Chairman, Kansas City Star
GH: Translation: Missouri has decided to do a very un-Missouri-like thing. Missouri is going to challenge itself to be better. Not just better. Missouri just told the country they want to be great. You become great by aligning yourself with the best. The Big 12 has proven to be the opposite of the best.

“What you are entering in the Southwestern Conference is the single most corrupt athletic conference in the history of sports. If you think it’s bad here (in the Big 12), wait until you get in that league! That league is the worst of the worst! Everything that is bad was invented in that conference. They will cheat you blind in that league!”
Kevin Kietzman, 810 AM
GH: Last week Kietzman was reminding us how accurate he has been all along in downplaying all this conference realignment talk. This week we get the bile byproduct of being wrong.

“What in the world are they doing on this thing! This is the dumbest thing they could do! You don’t think these are all knee-jerk jealous reactions? Of course they are!”
Kevin Kietzman, on Missouri contemplating leaving the Big 12, 810 AM

“You’re missing the whole point! Yes you are!”
Frank Boal, responding to Kietzman, 810 AM
GH: Boal and Jack Harry have both gotten into raised-voice discussion with Kietzman over his stance that the Big 12 is fine and Missouri is crazy for leaving this wealthy, stable and friendly conference.

“I don’t understand this ‘security’ thing. I keep hearing that word. I don’t know what that means. (Missouri) is doing the same thing Nebraska and A&M did. They’re stroking their own ego. They’re saying, ‘We’re better than you.’ ”
Kevin Kietzman, 810 AM
GH: No, this is the SEC saying Missouri is better than other options. If you exit a burning building, it just means you prefer not to die.

“This year speculation about realignment started up again and again Missouri was considered a desirable member from many conferences.”
Warren Erdman, MU Board Chairman, Kansas City Star
GH: I got the feeling listening to this presser that the SEC is not the only possible destination for Mizzou. I would not be shocked to hear that MU is being courted by the Big 10. If so, I believe there just might also be room for Kansas to join NU and MU in the granddaddy conference.

“Looks like MU fans are getting their wish and going to the SEC and SHOCKINGLY they are still bitter and angry towards KU.”
@BobFescoe, Twitter
GH: Not that Bulldog would ever stoop to being bitter. Read on.

“Right now the rest of the SEC is saying, ‘Is it Missouri or Missourah and where the hell are they located anyway? What? It snows there?”
@BobFescoe, Twitter

“One more thing, why doesn’t the big 12 give Mizzou a 24 hr deadline: crap or we push you off the pot. Make them decided now. Unfair 2 others.”
@BobFescoe, Twitter
GH: Missouri has hand in this game. It is their call. If the Big 12 gets pushy, it loses its fourth marquee member since June. That is not the kind of unhealthy roster a conference wants to project to possible new members.

“I believe I said (Monday) the Big East is more stable than the Big 12. Yep, I did. …If Mizzou who has been Big 12 member won’t commit long-term…why should anyone else?”
@SportsBizMiss, Twitter
GH: One reason the Big 12 has not been able to add new members is because they continue to lose old members.

“My pet peeve is the national media. They say this conference is weak, it’s wounded. I personally never thought this thing was going to fall apart.”
Kevin Kietzman, 810 AM
GH: Blame it on that dastardly national media! KK has not only been saying the Big 12 was fine, he trumpeted each team’s departure as a victory and a financial windfall for those left behind.

“I got my way because I said as long as Texas and Oklahoma stay, this league does not fall apart. It stays together.”
Kevin Kietzman, 810 AM
GH: In name only. With the departures of Nebraska and Missouri, this Big 12 has little in common with the conference I once knew.

“It’s a sad, sad day for sports in Kansas City if this means that Mizzou is gone. I’m trying to think of a darker day for KC Sports.”
@nate_bukaty, Twitter
GH: The Big 12 basketball tourney would likely be relocated to Dallas and OKC, leaving a gaping hole in KC’s March Madness. But it would also mean expanding KC’s sports footprint all the way to Florida. There is a lot of light there if you bother to lift your head up to see it.

“Good news everyone: the Big 8 is back!!!”
@mellinger, Twitter

“(Missouri) is a grand school and they made a good decision in this.”
Caller to The Nightshift, who identified himself as the father of a current MU student, 610 AM
GH: Both 810 and 610 kept their afternoon-drive hosts on live after 6:00 PM, anticipating MU’s press conference. But neither Kietzman nor Wright hung in long enough for the board’s late live announcement. After the presser, 810 returned listeners to their scheduled programming, Beyond the Norm, hosted by ex-Royal Les Norman. Les proved to be less than agile in adapting his program to cover one of the biggest stories of the year. He instead went with a fluff interview of an injured high school female athlete and her father. The kind of filler radio that late-night listeners have been subjected to just because ad sales in the evening reek. 610 Sports remained in Mizzou mode by having Carrington Harrison step in after Nick Wright departed. Carrington fielded spirited calls from listeners on the Mizzou news and added his own Tiger-biased commentary. It was an easy choice to listen to 610 Sports. I was surprised 810 chose to give this one away so easily.

“I think what we have is gradual steps to get better.”
John Currie, KSU AD, when asked by Kevin Kietzman if a six-year contract between Big 12 schools was enough, 810 AM
GH: Chip Brown of OrangeBloods.com reported that a deal to extend the contract from six years to 13 was almost reached Monday night – until Texas balked. That’s when Mizzou got serious about packing.

“I think you folks are kidding yourself if you think KU and MU will keep scheduling each other from diff leagues. Not happenin’.”
@nate_bukaty, Twitter
GH: Of course Kansas will want to play MU if they depart for the SEC or Big 10. One thing drives everything in college athletics – cash. It is lucrative for these two teams to play football and basketball. So they will.

“Just because u have not heard anything about KU doesn’t mean there is nothing going on.”
@BobFescoe, Twitter
GH: Uh, yeah… I think it does.

“I think (810 listeners) are going to surf the dial. I think it’s going to fragment the audience a lot.”
Kevin Kietzman, on how discussing
Mizzou and their SEC opponents will drive listeners away from WHB programming, 810
GH: If Mizzou changes conferences, that means more work for the sports talk guys. Kietzman has never struck me as a guy who puts in a lot of overtime studying his craft. Having to learn 13 new SEC teams in both football and basketball might scare him into an early Arizona retirement.

“In order to have a big audience, you need to have a lot of people engaged and involved.”
Kevin Kietzman, 810 AM
GH: Almost every talking head on local sports talk radio has reacted to the miniaturization of the Big 12 as if it has killed their industry and the city we live in. Granted, it is not ideal. But we are spending so much time bemoaning our future fate that we are very likely missing out on new opportunities. Not the least of which may be the need for new blood when it comes to sports talk hosts.

and Twitter / greghall24

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About Greg Hall

Software guy who has been writing my Off The Couch column in KC newspapers, publications and websites since 1994. Has been bounced from some of the finest media establishments this side of State Line Road. Dad first and everything else second...and there are a lot of everything elses.
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47 Responses to OTC: Mizzou Changes Its Status To: Available

  1. The KC Eye says:

    I heard Kietzman accuse the SEC of corruption with no validity today Greg, and I thought of you. Is his agenda all ratings-driven given the potential divide in his audience after Mizzou leaves? He’s too predictable anymore.

    Check out my blog on what Mizzou’s absence would mean for the Kansas City sports fan here.

  2. Ptolemy says:

    MU is simply being the attention whore they always are. They are going nowhere. You heard it here first.

    • Brencado says:

      KU and KSU fans sound like a couple of fat bitches who are pissed because MU got a new set of tits and are showing them off. Get over it guys…you will be left suckling the hind titties of TX and OK for as long as they’ll let you. Sucks to be you.

    • Greg Hall says:

      It’s not a given that MU will leave the Big 12 but do you really believe the Board of Curators are simply acting out a false passion play just to get attention? I think they’re are dead serious. Big 12 dead serious.

      • Scottt says:

        Greg, if as you say, the vote came immediately following Texas’s rejection of the 13-year plan, it sounds to me like Mizzou’s move is designed to pressure Texas. In that vein, it’s pretty similar to what OU did–going public with a threat, when we later found out that there was no offer from the Pac-12. OU’s threat was largely empty, but was successful in scaring Texas back to the bargaining table. Isn’t it possible–even likely–that Mizzou is doing the same thing?

        • Greg Hall says:

          Possible, but I think that was Neinas’ and the Big 12′s best shot to squelch Mizzou’s SEC move. I hear Neinas is headed to Columbia this week for more talks. I would say there is still time to save MU but the clock is ticking.

    • Matt says:

      Assuming you’re a KU fan…not a hard assumption. It’s rather comical how much you guys are pissed about this, yet it was your school begging Missouri not to leave. Now you’re pissed, calling them an attention whore, yet saying they’re staying?

      Al Bohl, is that you?

      • Stevo says:

        1. Mizzou IS an attention whore. They most definitely want their minute in the spotlight after the A&M, OU and UT talks calmed down to declare “we matter.” Can’t really blame them.
        2. Mizzou is very short-sighted. Missouri is an option for the BIG or SEC because you deliver KC and St Lou. That isn’t changing…ever. Stability??? After Texas and Oklahoma you are now the 3rd most “important” member in the B12 from a stabilizing/destabilizing perspective. No matter what happens, Missouri isn’t going to be left out of a major conference because they deliver 5.something million people and two top 40 markets!
        3. You’re leaving this conference because you perceive the distribution of money and power to be unjust? SCHOOLS OWN THEIR OWN THIRD TIER RIGHTS IN THE SEC!!! Florida made over $10 mil this year for their 3rd tier deal. Texas made $15 or so. How much did Alabama make? How much will you make? It’s the same setup since the Big 12 agreed to share 1st and 2nd tiers. You’re leaving this horrible system for the EXACT SAME ONE!
        4. You’re walking away from a major conference tournament in your state, every year. This is perplexing. Honestly, I can’t believe your pols are allowing this to even be an option! You’re removing yourselves from being the geographical center for Men’s BB in the B12 (and MBB better get real important to you, real quick)…because
        5. As ridiculous as KK is, he is right about one thing. The SEC wrote the book on cheating. Cam Newton told Miss St. that he had to go to Auburn because the money was so much better. Not that he was going to get money, mind you…that the money was BETTER. I understand the rose-colored glasses towards the SEC and the $ that comes with it, but do you really think you’re going to compete with a team like Bama who’s star RB (Trent Richardson) has had two $60K cars in his name in the past year? Mizzou is either going to get real dirty, real fast or be uncompetitive.

        • Orphan of the Road says:

          I think you will find Texas and their brethren from the SWC were offered shelter from the storm AFTER their conference was disbanded after SMU’s death sentence and other famous cheating scandals.

          The foundation of the Big 12 was built on quicksand and now it sinks.

          The Southern teams of the Big 12 may not want to rebuild to 12 and resume the conference championship game. It didn’t work out to their advantage so scrap it.

          For the state of Missouri, it isn’t that big a deal. But to KC it means losing lots of revenue.

          The Basketball Experience in downtown KC will now be whomever UMKC plays.

  3. Nick says:

    Bob Fescoe is AIDS on the ear.

    • kcredsox says:

      As is Nate Bukaty.

      • Babe Ruthless says:

        Ugh..too much Bukaty today. At 6:20am having had nearly 12 hours to get his thoughts together about last night’s news, he sounded like he was vomiting all over himself. Awful. Nate Bukaty should be on the KU sideline and in the Royals clubhouse. He’s a reporter..not a host..not a personality.

  4. Mike DeArmond says:

    Now if Gabe and I could just “make up” more stuff to help biz.

  5. smartman says:

    MU to the SEC is the right move. Long term it will be better for them financially, academically and athletically. You can’t tell me that if the SEC or Big X were knocking on KU, KSU or ISU’s door they wouldn’t be putting on clean underwear and shaving their pubes.

    Better to have a Brazilian than a Sicilian!

  6. Joe says:

    Not only is KK sounding more (and more) like Don Fortune, he’s actually starting to look like him too! JH

  7. Bob Loblaw says:

    What’s that sound? Oh, it’s MU athletics sliding into irrelevancy….

    • Java Man says:

      All of the sudden rival fans consider MU relevant. Whatever happened to all the talk from Big 12 folks that the conference was as tough as any in the land?

      • Bob Loblaw says:

        Playing MU in the Big 12 IS relevant. Sorry, but MU is going from a conference with 2 perennial national powerhouse institutions to SIX. There is no denying that the nice run they’ve had these past few years are going to be much more arduous to duplicate in the SEC. Welcome to the new run of 5-7 and 6-6 years, with 7-5 being a GREAT year. The SEC is licking their chops to get them in there.

  8. Cliffy says:

    Nobody’s saying anything new here (Mizzou will become irrevevant, blah, blah, Mizzou is an attention whore, blah, blah, Mizzou has never won anything, blah, blah) so I’ll change the subject. I had to drive in from the middle part of the state this morning so was forced to listen to 610 until 810 raised antenna power. Pairing Parkins with Fescoe because whiney bitch Klingler is away was entertaining. Parkins brings some sanity to Fescoe’s absurdity. I’ve never listened to Parkins’ show but he seems very professional. Maybe he’s an option for the afternoon drive?

    • Jess says:

      Parkins for a afternoon host makes sense. I would listen to him long before Wright. 610 management would never go for it, they have not done a damn thing that has made sense in a long time.

  9. Eric W. says:

    Here is where SteveO is wrong. Currently the SEC does allow schools to retain their third tier tv money..for now. The SEC holds the right to pull that back at anytime and form an SEC network. And I’ve got news for you, that’s already in the works. Once that comes to fruition, the money distributed to SEC schools will be ASTRONOMICAL and will dwarf the B1G network and even the PAC12 tv deal. Texas will NEVER give up LHN, so the smaller schools will never get a taste of that action.

  10. JS says:

    Texas is the real culprit in this whole mess. Their greediness and bravado has brought us to where we are in the Big 12. They want to act like an “independent” but want to be in a conference as well. They can’t have both and the schools that have options are smart to leave. Until Texas acts like a true conference member and not a bully who can tell everyone what to do the conference will continue to implode. Deloss Dodds needs to wake up before it is too late–it may already be too late.

  11. AaronB4Mizzou says:

    KK, Nate, Fescue…one thing in common, they’re stuck in the Big 12. They have to hitch onto the Bevo/OU wagon, no matter what. Mizzou, despite what many thought, actually did have options. Deaton & Mizzou worked very hard to better the Big 12 & tried to make it work. Had they succeeded, the Big 12 would have been a better, more stable league all around, and the K-States & Beakers would have been in a better place. Bevo balked. It’s as simple as that. The sharing of Tier 1 & 2 rights was NOT the issue. It was the Tier 3 rates and the overall lack of stability that did this. Bevo wants the power of an independent with the security of a conference. OU, once they figured out they couldn’t go to the Pac 10, decided to ride shotgun with Bevo.

    As for Kansas City: news flash to you, the Big 12 has pretty much taken about everything away from you already. The basketball tourney hasn’t even been there every year. I think this move could really be a positive for the KC market. You’ll still have the local 3 schools, but now you get that added benefit of having a, “my conference is better than your conference” debate. Could really make it fun. Other ways to have a positive influence in KC, how about a Mizzou/Arkansas game at Arrowhead? That would be crazy. Do the same w/another SEC school, or play a game at the Sprint Center. Shoot, the Beakers & Mizzou could continue to play at Arrowhead, or if Bukaty gets his way, play K-State at Arrowhead. Lots of good possibilities. Who knows, may KC could get the SEC basketball tourney, since basketball is of little importance in SEC country.

    • Merle Tagladucci says:

      re: now you get that added benefit of having a, “my conference is better than your conference” debate. Could really make it fun.


      Gosh that does sound exciting.

  12. Tim says:

    So is there no podcast of Carringtons show last night? Would love to hear the callers.

  13. Jim says:

    Here’s a newflash for you, MU………..Other conferences want your TV sets. They could give two shits about you as a University. You haven’t pissed a DROP in ANY sport for the past 50 years. That’s not going to change, regardless of what conference you are in. KC and StL television markets are driving this bus.

    • Brencado says:

      Crybaby. MU is gone, move on…nothing more to see here. M-I-Z…S-E-C.

    • Java Man says:

      Here’s a newflash for you, Jim………water is wet.

      • Jim says:

        Crybaby? What? Are you an 11 year old school girl?

        Prediction: MU stays in the Big 12.

        • Brencado says:

          Not a school girl. Re-read your post. I think you sound like the adolescent. I am truly sorry that your school (assumption being you are a KU or KSU fan) is stuck. It is time time to have your admin man up and make a path for you that does not include kissing Texas’ backside.

          • Jim says:

            Your assumption is incorrect, Brenny. Additionally, I don’t give a damn what Texas does. You take it personally that Texas makes more money than your beloved MU. How fucking stupid is that? These are schools!! My life isn’t impacted one way or another.

    • Cliffy says:

      Dr. Einstein … er … Jim. Except for the fact that we HAVE pissed a drop or two, you are correct. The state of kansas is a flat piece of nothing that nobody is ever going to care about. This is true.

      • Jim says:

        Name a drop of piss, Cliffy! Greatness is measured in championships. Get over yourself, homer. You would think MU could excel in one or the other major sports over a flat piece of ground nobody cares about.

        • Merle Tagladucci says:

          He can’t give you any examples unless it involves beating KU in football. That’s where they hang their hat.

          • Brett says:

            is it mildy upsetting to ku fans that basketball is utterly meaningless for conference realignment purposes?

            i think so.

  14. nick says:

    Missouri is PERFECT for the SEC:

    - The SEC will get the K.C. and St. Louis markets.
    - They’ll get a non-threatening basketball school that may actually get more non-threatening with Haith in charge.
    - They’ll get a football team that will be scrappy and put up a decent fight but never threaten to take the spotlight off the big boys.
    - SEC officials will get free tickets to see hillbilly shows in Branson.

    ALSO, I do think KU and MU will play against each other again, but only when and where KU wants to play.

  15. Merle Tagladucci says:

    If Missouri goes to the SEC the deal will have a nice pretty bow on it but deep down I don’t think Missouri fans as a whole are as thrilled as they think they should be. They want to be fired up and yell, “Adios Gayhawks! We’re outta here ha ha ha see ya!” But the fact of the matter is Missouri has no business being in the SEC. It’s like putting the Chiefs in the NFC South. Makes no sense. How excited would Chiefs fans be to play Atlanta, New Orleans, Tampa and Carolina twice every year? It would suck. “Yeah Merle but the Chiefs are going to get a larger share of revenue and overall it’ll be great for the franchise when they move to the NFC South.” Well hey let’s all pretend that translates into something swell for the fans. If anything, at best Missouri will adopt a loftier sense of self worth simply because they will be mentioned in the same sentence as Florida, LSU, Alabama, et al. At worst, they’ll feel like Flounder and Pinto trying to blend in at the Omega Theta Pi rush party. By the end of the night though they’ll be bent over getting their asses paddled moaning, “Thank you sir may I have another!”

    You think the fans of any of those SEC schools are thinking, “Wow, our conference is going to be so much better if only Missouri would become our newest member.” Shit no, they couldn’t care less. There’s always somebody at the party who was invited by a friend of a friend of a friend. That’ll be Missouri. Nobody in the SEC is going to wake up on Saturdays filled with energy to play Missouri. All they’ll see is a wounded duck that was offered three hots and a cot. And whoever said Missouri better start learning how to cheat “but fast” was dead-on. Everybody tap dances in the SEC and Missouri better start taking lessons. If they couldn’t win a Big 12 Championship in football by playing it straight. how do you think they’ll fare in the SEC?

    So leave. Go. Get out. We’re done here.

    • Greg Hall says:

      Chiefs fans get pretty excited about playing their AFC West rivals in California and Denver. I think Mizzou will add 20K seats to their stadium in the next 5 years to handle the increase in season ticket sales. The SEC will change how the state of Missouri covers, views and understands college football.

      • Merle Tagladucci says:

        The SEC will also change how sports radio and sports writers in this town cover, view and understand college football. All of the sudden those guys’ jobs just got harder.

    • Cliffy says:

      Real men stalk 20-something radio announcers on Twitter than throw a fit when they block them.

      • Merle Tagladucci says:

        Good to know that it’s ok for Cliffy to judge Merle’s comments here on GH’s site but God forbid if Merle were to do the same to NW on Twitter. All these tricky internet rules are confusing.

  16. Brett says:

    do not be shocked if Missouri still ends up in the Big 10, and not the SEC, very shortly.

    1. Clearly MU would prefer the Big 10, both for acedemic prestige, and from a football competition standpoint.

    2. When the Big 10 shunned MU last year, MU had no other suitors. The words “MU” and “SEC” were not being mentioned in the same conversation. This allowed the Big 10 to say, “MU, we may be interested in your 5 million TV viewers some day, and we know you’ll jump at the opportunity to join if and when we extend the invitation.”

    This is no longer true. MU has other options. And the Big 10 may never have a shot at these 5 million viewers again if MU joins the SEC.

    3. chancellor deaton’s comment that several conferences have expressed interest in MU should not be ignored. yes, it sounds self-serving and egotistical. but he wouldn’t say it if he weren’t talking to multiple conferences.
    obviously the SEC is one of the conferences. but who is/are the other(s)? i suppose it could be the PAC12, ACC, or Big East. but, the Big 10 would be the most likely.

    My point is, a lot has changed since last summer. The Big 10 can no longer sit back, knowing that MU will always be there. The Big 10 even said that, while it is no longer seeking to expand, that could change if the college landscape changes. When MU got the informal SEC invite, the landscape changed.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a lifelong MU fan, and I would love to go to the Big 10. In response to the KU fans, this has nothing to do with MU thinking it is better than KU or KSU or anyone else. We are smart enough to know that a large part of our appeal to the SEC and possibly the Big 10 is due to our KC and STL tv markets. But your schools would be doing the exact same thing if they had the opportunity.

    Do not blame MU for this. Texas is the sole reason MU has been forced to look for greener pastures.

  17. nick says:

    Great post Merle.

    “Missouri will adopt a loftier sense of self worth simply because they will be mentioned in the same sentence as Florida, LSU, Alabama, et al…”

    I think that’s why MU fans are so giddy.

    Yeah, I suppose there’s more stability in the SEC. But maybe not. The Big 12 will be good for 6 years. And it seems all members want it to last much longer.

  18. Kent says:

    How can Mizzou’s departure not be a big blow to KC? It goes from a central location in the current conference to a forgotten hinterland in the SEC or Big 10. Its geographic location in either of the new conferences and in the restructured Big 12 will be something like St. Louis’ in the current Big 12 footprint. St. Louis hosted two of the first three football championships, and nothing since. Yes, it’s possible KU and MU will retain their Border War games; it’s also entirely possible that they won’t.

    I understand why MU fans are excited about the switch; I don’t understand why Greg and others don’t think it will affect KC.

  19. The Independent Rage says:

    My view on all this crap as a Missouri alum is that I really don’t want MU joining the SEC. But I also can’t blame them, because I think the “Big 12″ is ultimately DEAD. I love the suggestion of the Big Ten, as well as the possibility of Kansas joining Missouri there along with Nebraska. I’ve absolutely hated the ending (Nebraska) and potential ending (Kansas) of football series with Missouri that go back 120 years. MU and KU would fit well in the Big Ten. I think it’s a pipe dream, but it sure sounds good.

  20. trajantiborgermanicus says:

    I don’t believe that MU fans are “giddy” about moving to the SEC because they feel there sports teams are going to be more successful. They are relieved that they won’t be under the thumb of Texas any longer. Just as Nebraska and A&M were trying to get out of that unequal relationship. The Big10 “stinks out loud” as Pete Enich would say and Mizzou would have a very good chance of being very successful in that league. The SEC would be great from a fan standpoint only that the SEC provides the most passionate fanbase in college football. And it is the toughest conference from top to bottom in football, but if small population states like Alabama and Arkansas an and equal pop states like Tennessee and South Carolina can be competive than there is no reason they could not be as succsesful as those teams….Not winning the SEC or national championships but being a top 30 team year in and out, much the same as they are now is not pipedream. I would love to go back to the big8 but those days are over and it’s time to be realistic. If Mizzou can use this leverage to solidify a stronger Big12 for the longhaul than great, but Mizzou fans don’t trust the south schools to that nor should they.

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